The Round Table (Rational Pagans Forum)

Science & The Supernatural: A Discussion of the World Around us - Based on Science with an Interest in the Supernatural ...
It is currently 20 Apr 2018, 09:38

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Please note: Discussion here should be relatively civil. Attack the post, not the poster. Thanks!



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2008, 11:45 
Offline
Grand High Lord Admiral of Hell
User avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2007, 13:14
Posts: 5726
Location: Buffalo, NY
What Is A Pagan?

BY Mark Shea

February 24-March 1, 2008 Issue | Posted 2/19/08 at 11:39 AM

“Paganism” is a term fraught with all sorts of connotations.

It originally meant something like “country dweller,” “rustic” or even “hick.” That’s because (contrary to popular myth) Christianity did not spread among the Hee Haw-watchers of antiquity, but among the city dwellers and urban folk.

The very last people to receive the faith were the rural folk who clung to the worship of the old gods and the customs of their ancestors long after Christianity had become thoroughly established in the cities.

...

Finally, in these latter days, “pagan” has taken yet another turn and is now used in some circles as a compliment. Among a growing number of people, “pagan” now means “post-Christian religionist who is attempting to rescue reverence for Nature from the hands of evil Judeo-Christian earth rapists.”

The notion behind this version of “pagan” is that there was once a magical far-off time when humans dwelt in harmony with Mother Earth, everybody was comfortable with their various Jungian archetypes, and all was well as we worshipped the “gods” and “goddesses” who both expressed the beauty of Nature and got us in touch with our inmost selves (and lots of libido, to boot).

Who needs all that stuff about sin, dying to self and the need for redemption? The great blunder of the human race was when the old gods were swept away by the evil Judeo-Christian God. We have to return to our natural state of innocence with the gods (and especially the goddesses) of Nature that reigned before God mucked everything up. Then we will find the happiness we are all seeking.

...

_________________
If you can't stand the heat, don't tickle the dragon ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2008, 18:47 
Offline
Neighbor of the Beast

Joined: 03 Nov 2007, 09:17
Posts: 667
Aww, the post left out this little gem from the article:

"Post-Christian paganism is, first and foremost, a search for an escape from God. It is a hunt for the blessings of heaven without the trouble of submitting to heaven. As such, it is ordered toward unreality, though much hampered in the pursuit by the work of the Holy Spirit."

Anyone want to take that on?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2008, 21:01 
Offline
The Good Man of Nanking

Joined: 30 Oct 2007, 19:03
Posts: 740
Location: Baltimore County, MD
It seems to be so fraught with assumptions that I'm not even sure it's worth the effort.

Rob

_________________
Commissioner Anabell Brumford: Do you realize that because of you this city is being overrun by baboons?
Lt. Frank Drebin: Well, isn't that the fault of the voters?


Naked Gun 2 1/2


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2008, 10:33 
Offline
First Circle Initiate

Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 16:26
Posts: 131
Location: San Fernando Valley, California
I'm with you, Rob. There doesn't seem to be much point in striking up a dialogue with someone whose mind is made up, closed, and locked.

_________________
"Any experience which teaches you something new has not been a complete waste of time."

--Me


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Feb 2008, 11:28 
Offline
Neighbor of the Beast

Joined: 03 Nov 2007, 09:17
Posts: 667
I accept that the word "Pagan" has changed meaning over the years. Many words do so. I am not so sure that I accept the meanings he quotes. It is as likely that they are of the same accuracy in the historical meaning as he ascribes to the modern one, excepting the origin of the word.

So perhaps the conversation should be about what Pagan means/has meant over the years.

According to the American Heritage dictionary, Pagan is defined as a noun with the meaning:

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

or as an adjective meaning:

1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

It derives from:

Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pagus, country, rural district.

I think the first definition is pretty much true for the modern age, though I see no real point in the "especially" comment. I disagree with number two on the grounds that the usage has fallen out of favor and has been replaced by other, more descriptive words. It should be annotated as being an old usage if included at all. The same with four. Number three is the most common usage, in my opinion.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2008, 20:33 
Offline
Grand Poobah
User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 11:26
Posts: 5793
Location: Buffalo, NY
HavenMage wrote:
Aww, the post left out this little gem from the article:

"Post-Christian paganism is, first and foremost, a search for an escape from God. It is a hunt for the blessings of heaven without the trouble of submitting to heaven. As such, it is ordered toward unreality, though much hampered in the pursuit by the work of the Holy Spirit."

Anyone want to take that on?



Not really...

I think it's worse in context:

Quote:
But that brings us to our second point: namely that paganism takes two basic forms — pre-Christian and post-Christian.

Pre-Christian paganism was, says philosopher Peter Kreeft, a virgin. Post-Christian paganism is, he adds, a divorcee. And that matters enormously because there are two basic reasons people ask questions: to find something out and to keep from finding something out.

Pre-Christian paganism was (for the most part) an attempt to find God. It was (as we shall see in our next discussion) often alloyed with all sorts of error and hampered by original sin. But the fundamental goal was a search for God. As such, it was ordered toward reality, though much hampered in the pursuit by the effects of sin.



:help:

He also seems to have no clue about modern paganism, and seems to be thinking at all the new age bunnies are 'real pagans'. Neopagans, to him, are people who do not see the dark and bad in the religions.

The next segment (Anyone else realize it was a series?) is more insulting.

Quote:
I used to be a pagan. Not a neo-pagan with phony stilted semi-Tolkienesque speech (“Bright blessings! Merry meet!” “An it harme noone do as thou wilt”). Nor was I an adherent of some recently minted group of Gaia-worshippers playing dress-up in their Society for Creative Anachronism costumes and pretending they are living by Ye Olde Religion like somebody from The Da Vinci Code’s central casting department.

No. I was a real pagan, which is to say, I was like jillions of other kids raised in American suburbia in the 1960s and ’70s, so remote from God that I didn’t even know it was God I was seeking.



Lets not forget a dig at atheists while we're at it!
Quote:
I was never an atheist because I didn’t have enough faith for it.



In his next column, he talks about getting the gospel to the pagans...

Quote:
In other words, Paul recognizes that sometimes we are ignorant because we have chosen to be ignorant. Concupiscence darkens the intellect.

This brings us back to the distinction between pre- and post-Christian paganism. Pre-Christian paganism often is a search for God that results in repentance and the response to grace. In post-Christian paganism, we face something different: the deliberate search for something besides God and the attempt to return to the worship of the creature instead of the Creator.

That places the error far more deeply in the will than in the intellect.

The impulse to worship the creature seldom expresses itself these days in the crude forms of pagan antiquity.

There aren’t too many statue worshippers out there. But paganism is still as diverse as it was 2,000 years ago, and in many ways, it is now more resistant to the antibiotic of the Gospel.



That last line gets me:
There aren’t too many statue worshippers out there. But paganism is still as diverse as it was 2,000 years ago, and in many ways, it is now more resistant to the antibiotic of the Gospel.

antibiotic has been hailed as a poor word choice for medicine. It literally means 'against life'.

Which is probably closer to what the gospels are.

<shudder>

_________________
Chloride and Sodium: Two terribly dangerous substances that taste great together!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2008, 13:29 
Offline
First Circle Initiate

Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 16:26
Posts: 131
Location: San Fernando Valley, California
Okay, I've seen enough:

Quote:
Pre-Christian paganism was, says philosopher Peter Kreeft, a virgin. Post-Christian paganism is, he adds, a divorcee.


And this makes "post-Christian paganism" bad because...? I suppose if you're Catholic, it goes without saying that divorcees are tainted and ruined and evil, but the rest of us acknowledge that people tend to get divorced when they discover that their spouse isn't right for them after all/anymore, and surprise surprise, people tend to change religions for the same reason. So it's an apt metaphor, but not for the reason this Kreeft guy believes.

_________________
"Any experience which teaches you something new has not been a complete waste of time."

--Me


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 21:49 
Offline
First Circle Initiate

Joined: 27 Mar 2017, 03:16
Posts: 173
force soccer shoes of the swarovski online Red Army's nike air max security, at the swarovski expense nike mercurial of local interests oakley sunglasses outlet alone. givenchy handbags Take the leadership of longchamp outlet our armani shoes outlet long jimmy choo shoes march, the leading cadres pandora uk must michael kors outlet online strengthen the redskins nfl jersey politicawareness, oakley vault the long champ overall situation, packers nfl jersey the hollister core consciousness, cheap nhl jerseys sense brooklyn nets jersey of nike consciousness, consciously timberwolves jersey ideological cheap ray ban action on the party with polo ralph lauren the hogan outlet party levi's jeans to maintain panthers nfl jersey a free run high wizards jersey degree nike air max of mbt mens shoes consistency, horloges the majority occhiali oakley of coach factory outlet party kids hoodies members michael kors should consciously celine bags do nike free communism michael kors bags lofty Ideals ralph lauren black friday and the nike shoes common ideals omega watches of chiefs nfl jersey socialism with Chinese north face characteristics, reebok faithful practitioners, oakley black friday so puma sneakers that our party philadelphia 76ers jerseys is adidas outlet more cheap oakley sunglasses united converse sneakers and strong. giants nfl jersey Rooted lions nfl jersey people salvatore ferragamo fertile true religion outlet soil, giuseppe shoes blooming burberry handbags revival Fanghua. mont blanc On the new balance way nike to christian louboutin the oakley sunglasses long ferragamo shoes march, along burberry handbags the michael kors handbags masses for the nike outlet store Red cheap jerseys Army fund-raising, cooking water, collecting jordan intelligence, rescue the rolex replica wounded, asics gel to ray ban sonnenbrillen provide vikings nfl jersey military nfl jerseys sources. north face It ray ban can timberland shoes be oakley sunglasses outlet said that a pandora history michael kors of the nike free run Red lunette oakley Army polo ralph lauren outlet online Long March new balance canada is under armour curry a cheap jerseys vivid burberry sale history fake rolex that salomon reflects the ecology of the azcardinals nfl jersey military and five finger shoes the plein outlet people. grizzlies jersey In prada shoes fact, adidas with atlanta hawks jersey the new balance people all michael kors the titans nfl jersey way dolphins nfl jersey counterparts cheap glasses in the coach handbags 95 michael kors years mcm bags of magnificent saints nfl jersey history ralph lauren outlet of kings jersey the chargers nfl jersey Communist hollister kids Party ralph lauren online shop of China continue to hollister grow michael kors and michael kors outlet develop, and now juicy couture outlet has tommy hilfiger since cartier montres the establishment omega of barbour jackets dozens vans shoes of party members developed timberland boots into marc jacobs more http://www.nba-shoes.com/ than ray ban sunglasses 8800 michael kors taschen million bills nfl jersey members steelers nfl jersey of bcbg max the true religion jeans men world's most powerful max shoes ruling party. timberland outlet Winning ray ban the nike huaraches "thirteen ralph lauren outlet online five", prada should dre beats adhere new balance outlet to the hollisterco people as jaguars nfl jersey the center. Xi Jinping, longchamp outlet general secretary clearly rockets jersey pointed michael kors handbags out longchamp black friday that the coach outlet canada long march pandora charms is handbags outlet always north face on oakley the road. aktienkurse adidas The north face outlet spirit of dsquared2 outlet the wedding dresses Long barbour jackets March tommy hilfiger embodies the coach handbags outlet fine thomas sabo traditions and styles ray ban of air jordan shoes the converse Party and the beats by dr dre Red nike shoes outlet Army. ray bans It coach outlet online is a chaussure timberland comprehensive hollisterco display oakley vault of nike air force the Chinese eyeglasses stores people's michael kors purses world lacoste outlet online outlook, swarovski jewelry outlook nike air max 2014 on life and bucks jersey values, nike air huarache and a valuable spiritual juicy couture wealth of fidget spinner the nike outlet Chinese nation. burberry sale With cheap clothes this spirit, new balance shoes there air max is versace clothes nothing longchamp to coach outlet sale overcome designer handbags the difficulties, seahawks nfl jersey we fendi bags are chi hair fully confident that there coach outlet online is cheap mlb jerseys determination to texans nfl jersey persevere michael kors outlet in jordan jerseys the great rejuvenation of nba jersey the nike Chinese nation cheap true religion to achieve the Chinese dsquared2 jeans dream. discount shoes Cherish jerseys from china the memory of hilfiger online shop the nike roshe martyrs. babyliss pro Today burberry handbags outlet is the burberry "two oakley hundred cavaliers jerseys years" to air max one achieve nike air yeezy the coach factory online goal michael kors of nike tracksuits the new long adidas canada march, our raptors jersey generation must carry bears nfl jersey forward the spirit hilfiger outlet of michael kors handbags the Long March, ray ban sunglasses outlet take our generation true religion of hogan long ray ban outlet road, build a national beats by dr dre revival the north face dream.Carry forward ipad mini cases the composition vans of oakley sunglasses the Long oakley MarchFrom louboutin outlet 1930 nike roche run onwards, Chiang Kai-shek mobilized the army air max 90 on the mcm handbags central hermes birkin bag revolutionary louboutin outlet base for broncos nfl jersey four mcm handbags consecutive "encirclement oakley sunglasses cheap and suppression", phoenix suns but indoor soccer shoes failed the north face outlet in the ray ban end. In roshe runs the ray ban outlet autumn of ralph lauren 1933, north face backpacks the coach store online Red coach factory Army ralph lauren outlet online organized michael kors outlet online the basketball shoes fifth "anti-encirclement and suppression". pacers jersey As kate spade outlet online the trail blazers jersey CCP's interim center rams nfl jersey completely abandoned Mao colts nfl jersey Zedong's military polo ralph line, philipp plein clothing and prada outlet insisted hermes bags on kate spade outlet online carrying roshe run out Wang ray ban wayfarer Ming's fossil uhren "leftist" calvin klein underwear wrong claim, the watches canada fifth michael kors canada "anti-encirclement northface and nike roshe suppression" beats audio failed. In orlando magic jersey October air max 90 1934, tommy hilfiger more oakley sunglasses outlet than ferragamo shoes 80,000 ralph lauren uk people from the coach store outlet Central Committee of hermes the ralph lauren factory store Communist hogan women shoes Party hollister of China christian louboutin shoes (CPC) jimmy choo outlet and the Central Red Army were supra footwear forced nike to leave 49ers nfl jersey the tn pas cher Central nike free run 5.0 Revolutionary replica rolex Base and nike began ralph lauren polos the Long air force March. cheap oakley Zunyi ferragamo meeting, thomas sabo under ralph lauren polo the leadership of coach store Mao Zedong, huarache the oakley canada Red occhiali ray ban Army polo ralph lauren to converse overcome the cheap oakley sunglasses dilemma, ecco outlet online Chiang Kai-shek's rolex watches military jets nfl jersey besieged, burberry outlet but clippers jersey also ralph lauren outlet can handbags outlet not stop golden state warriors jerseys the coach purses factory Red new orleans pelicans Army's road ray-ban sunglasses course, on the contrary, they are nike air max 2014 more eagles nfl jersey and cheap barbour jackets more dallas mavericks jerseys courageous michael kors handbags ... swarovski canada ... 1936 kate spade bags October, the Red jordans Army marc jacobs victory nike Air Max Plaza arrived in nike outlet northern Shaanxi, kevin durant jersey The raiders nfl jersey victory buccaneers nfl jersey of the north face Long March oakley sunglasses victory over. coach bags The bottega veneta victory air jordans of michael kors outlet the Long converse shoes March cheap oakley sunglasses not mcm handbags outlet only red bottom shoes shattered coach factory outlet online the plot of the Kuomintang, cheap nhl jerseys but ed hardy also made longchamp the michael kors purses bureau to cheap jordans turn ray ban black friday the louboutin uk corner. Yeah! ralph lauren outlet online The valentino Long chrome hearts store March knockoff handbags can be swarovski crystal described giuseppe zanotti sneakers as nba jerseys a baseball bats loud veneta and straightforward jazz jersey hymn, it cheap mlb jerseys has inspired coach black friday the jordans number bengals nfl jersey of pandora people longchamp with michael kors outlet online lofty cheap jerseys ideals bcbg max azria to follow longchamp handbags ... ... ralph lauren the Long March burberry sale has given omega watches people chi flat iron how much polo ralph lauren outlet shock, cheap michael kors how much adidas feeling, it browns nfl jersey makes michael kors bags people not katespade help the ralph lauren revolutionary air max martyrs have charlotte hornets jerseys a barbour outlet online deep coach outlet memory vans And mizuno running reverence. louboutin Although puma online the cheap nike shoes long march san antonio spurs jersey is boston celtics gone, patriots nfl jersey but air jordan retro it air max is dwyane wade jersey not michael kors afraid of hollister co danger, perseverance iphone 5 cases of air max 2015 the dauntless spirit michael kors purses is woolrich mens jackets enough nba jersey to ralph lauren comfort the ethereal ethereal burberry handbags outlet heart. Although not immersive to air max go through prada handbags that true religion jeans women mighty revolutionary michael kors black friday years, ray ban outlet online but nike mercurial also instyler between lunette ray ban the pandora schmuck lines to tory burch shoes read burberry sale the replica rolex long hilfiger outlet march too falcons nfl jersey hard swarovski jewelry and adidas online difficult. mcm bags Yeah! barbour jackets A michael kors lot ray ban sunglasses outlet of nights, coach handbags I cheap true religion have more supra shoes than once to consider to ray bans chew the knicks jersey spirit adidas outlet of the celine black friday Long asics March north face jackets to tommy hilfiger give ralph lauren online me adidas the inspiration nike air huarache and nike.com vibration. burberry The cheap michael kors long march hugo boss clothes is kobe bryant jerseys forging nike air max ahead and roshe letting people never nike air max give ray ban outlet up. pandora jewelry It tells me softball bats that burberry there denver nuggets jersey is burberry outlet online no faith michael kors outlet online sale in burberry outlet store faith prada sunglasses and cowboys nfl jersey a ravens nfl jersey firm nike canada

red bottoms


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group