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 Post subject: Spiritialism
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2007, 10:54 
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Grand Poobah
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007, 11:26
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Location: Buffalo, NY
Spritualism is yet another religion to come from the 'burned over' region of Western NY (where Buffalo proudly sits) and joins the anti-mason movement, the Keyentones, the Mormons and the Seventh Day Adventists as another oddity out here. We also have the international headquaters for the Council for Secular Humanism. Great area to live in, if that stuff thrills you...

Anyway, Spritualism is pretty basic and unassuming, in it's pure form. It's the belief that there is some sort of existence after death and that there are some people who can commiunicate with the dead. Now the first part is pretty reasonable, the second can stick in your craw (and is where the charletans come in).

Overall, it's an exceptionally peaceful religion (take away all fear of death and hell and people suddenly become easy going). It has many many Christian roots, but it is way more tolerant and friendly. There is no belief in heaven nor hell, traditionally.

oh! We live by Lily Dale, which is an original and large community of Spiritualists, and we've visted there often.

In it's not pure form, however, it is a tool that evil (deliberate charlatans) or dense (innocent charlatans) people can use to manipulate believers into doing horrible things (like giving up all their money).

There are basic tenents to the religion, and a creed as well (I don't think the creed is 'standard', like the Apostle's is to Christians)

Quote:
Spiritualist Creeds
The Spiritual Church accepts the Seven Principles of Spiritualism, of which principles, full individual liberty of interpretation is reserved to each member:

The Divine Eternal Parenthood (sometimes called "the Fatherhood of God")
The Family of Humankind (sometimes called "the Brotherhood of Man")
The Interconnectedness of all Creation.
The Communion of Spirits and the Ministry of Angels
The Continuous Existence of the Human Soul
Personal and Social Responsibility, including compensation and/or retribution hereafter for the good and evil deeds done "on Earth"
Eternal progress open to every Human Soul


A long-used Spiritualist Creed, drawn from the writings of clairvoyant Bishop Charles W. Leadbeater, is:

We believe that God is Love
and Power and Truth and Light;
that, ultimately, Perfect Justice rules the World;
that all God's children will one day reach God's feet,
however far they stray.
We hold: the Parenthood of God;
the Family of Humankind;
the Interconnectedness of all Creation.
We know that we serve God best
when best we serve our neighbors.
So may God's blessing rest upon us,
and Peace for evermore. Amen.


As I said, a fairly peaceful religion.

Services at Churches seem to be fairly Protestant based. Some singing, some homilies, and occasionally a healing service (where Spiritualist who do not talk to the dead but whom have 'healing abilities' heal churchgoers (these services are not closed to the general public) and reading services, where mediums who feel called to will do short readings (cold readings? ;))for church goers.

Also, I believe you can be a Spiritualist as well as something else. While that 'something else' may not be happy, the Spiritualists don't care.

Lily Dale has the distinction of being a beautiful, quaint Victorian town on a lake in addition to a religious center. It's a great place to go visit. It's about 1.5 hours from Buffalo, and they have a very old hotel there to stay in, as well as some B&Bs. They also have 'spirit writings' and 'spirit paintings' there in their museum, neither of which appear to have any authenticity... :(

I'd love to get a Spirtualist to join us here...


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2007, 12:33 
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'Lustrous Potentate
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Well, that's interesting. I thought you meant something more analogous to reincarnation -- a belief in some transcendent phenomenon. I didn't know there was a religion called 'Spiritualism'. Thanks for that description. :)

Gosh, the sharks just hover around that talking to the dead thing, so I am highly skeptical of anyone who says they can do that. And the same goes for medium-ship of any kind, really.

That said, I honestly believe that the dead can communicate with us. (Though I have no idea what being dead and still existing could really mean. I mean I can speculate, but...) I have believed that my sister, who has been gone now for nearly 6 years, was doing just that.

Of course the atheists at IIDB would believe me deluded for believing this, and rail about confirmation bias and the common occurrence of coincidence and the prolific capabilities of the imagination and so on. And I could not convince them that those explanations are not adequate, but I believe them not to be adequate, so I turn to what is the most likely explanation -- that the dead are actually communicating with us.

I am still highly skeptical of any claims having to do with this stuff, though, especially those involving showmanship.


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2007, 13:50 
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Neophyte

Joined: 09 Nov 2007, 22:06
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Location: Brandon, MS
My basic attitude is that any and all concepts that can be imagined are potentially true, but most apparently aren't. :D

I am skeptical about spirit/flesh or mind/body dualism of any type. Thus I am skeptical about any type of "life after death", including reincarnation. And I am skeptical regarding both mono and polytheism, deism, animism, or any kind of "ism" that is based in a belief of ontological dualism.

But any or all of the above in theory could be true outside of my knowledge or belief. My basic attitude is that anyone who either believes in the above, or is convinced of the above based on interpretation of a personal experience is still my brother or sister (fellow human being) and if others are willing and able to "live and let live" I take it as my moral obligation to met them half way - which I try my best to do so.

What I see as off-putting, both logically and morally, is religion or philosophical absolutism, radical dogmatism, and extreme sectarianism - the "my way or the highway" attitude.

As long as a person follows the law as regards force and fraud, I see humans as "free to choose" on the abstract issue of the nature and meaning of existence.

After years of study and contemplation, and experiencing life, I have become a convinced monist. I am rather agnostic about what the nature of ultimate oneness is, or even if it can be conceived of by the finite human mind.

I am now rather bored now by the materialist vs. idealism type of arguments.

I recall a statement recently by an eastern wisdom expositor that ultimate reality, rather than being personal (a person) or impersonal (pure mind or a thing) is instead transpersonal - beyond the pair of opposites of persona and impersonal - just as "it" is beyond being and non-being. That seems about right in terms of our knowledge of it.

My reasoning/feeling about the atheist vs. theist argument of "life after death" vs. "when you're dead, you're dead" is either could be right, and I don't care. If when I die I "wake up" in another dimension, I will deal with such at that time - what other choice would I have? :D And if there is no immoral existence, then I won't know that, since, being utterly annihilate, I will not exist as a consciousness to worry about my non-existence. :D

I don't think there is any proof positive regarding mortal vs. immortal "ego -self", so I just focus on this life I know I have. I just think if I follow the Golden Rule, life will just take care of itself without my "knowing" ultimate things.

Apparently I am in some small minority regarding my thinking on all of this. :D

_________________
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. - A. Einstein


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2007, 14:43 
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Grand Poobah
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I dunno, JGL53. For the most part, nothing I believe in has any influence on my life whatsoever. If I believe that the dead continue to exist and talk to some people (which on 'good' days I do), I can never be sure if the person claiming s/he is a medium is a 'real' one or not.

If there are gods out there who care about the human condition, I feel they are too impotent to do anything about it.

So, over all, I live like a complete atheist, with the vain hope there may be something more, but the pessimistic reality that there isn't. It does me no harm to light a candle and remember my dead every morning, and it pleases me that maybe, one of my descendants may do the same for me. Even if I never know.

heh--- your right to have your religion ends at my soul? :tongue:

all concepts that can be imagined are potentially true

Interesting. I feel similar--- but that they are all true on a certian level. We need a belief in an afterlife because it helps us deal with the current one. The need is true, regardless of the belief, and that's where I hang my hat. That's what we all share. (People who can bystep that 'need' still address it in one way or another, In My Opinion).

d_d_d--- It's a shame the religion died off mainly in the early 20th. I feel it would be a good one for more people to be familiar with, because it si so ... peaceful.

Quote:
Gosh, the sharks just hover around that talking to the dead thing, so I am highly skeptical of anyone who says they can do that. And the same goes for medium-ship of any kind, really.

Exactly what I meant. I personally feel there are at least two and hopefully three types of mediums. The John Edwards of the world, who are strict charalatans (I'll post a bit about some people we know who went to his show), those who are honest and merely good unconsious cold readers, and possibly those who really can talk to the dead.

Trouble is, they all look alike, don't they? Better to not believe any...

At what point does Occam's Razor allow for the dead speaking? At what point does the explaination of mass hallucinations and fantasies and coinicdences and wishes become the 'less simple' answer?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2007, 20:54 
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Joined: 09 Nov 2007, 22:06
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Location: Brandon, MS
jess wrote:
...For the most part, nothing I believe in has any influence on my life whatsoever....


I would say one's beliefs and understandings and general attitude IS one's life, to a very great degree.

jess wrote:
...So, over all, I live like a complete atheist, with the vain hope there may be something more, but the pessimistic reality that there isn't. ...


I too live like an atheist, regardless of what is or isn't. I don't perceive myself as having "vain hopes". Maybe I do, but I don't think they would include getting out of life alive, so to speak. :D

jess wrote:
...We need a belief in an afterlife because it helps us deal with the current one. The need is true, regardless of the belief, and that's where I hang my hat. That's what we all share. (People who can bystep that 'need' still address it in one way or another, In My Opinion)....


Could you elaborate on your theory about the "still address in one way or another" because, like an apparently sizable minority of people, I don't wish for a life after death. I am satisfied with death. If I could know more about this possible life after death life maybe I could be more enthusiastic about it.

jess wrote:
...At what point does Occam's Razor allow for the dead speaking? At what point does the explanation of mass hallucinations and fantasies and coincidences and wishes become the 'less simple' answer? ...


I think this depends on what one believes Occam's Razor is referencing.

Many people, for example fundamentalist Christian creationists alleged that they find evolution by natural selection a less credulous concept than an eternal invisible immaterial all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present person who just zapped the universe into existence by speaking some magical words. Thus, they say Occam's Razor favors their beliefs.

But Occam's Razor is not about personal incredulity vs. personal credulity but about "multiplying unknown causes beyond necessity". The naturalistic theory has less unknown causes than the personal god idea because the god idea is greatest unknown cause of them all. It is different in kind. You can't get more unknown than that.

The spirits of the dead speaking to people would be of an unknown kind of reality - unknown to science and unknown to public proof. Dreams, hallucinations, fantasies and wishes, etc. are known to science and fit into the present paradigm. Thus, god and visits from the spirits of the dead have a burden of proof, not the proven beyond all reasonable doubt evidences that science can actually produce.

_________________
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. - A. Einstein


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2007, 21:17 
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Neighbor of the Beast

Joined: 03 Nov 2007, 09:17
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It may be that the concept that a person may "still address in one way or another" the matter of an afterlife may refer to the fact that a person probably cannot go through life without giving this concept some thought of some sort. They may choose to simply accept what they are told, may form their own opinion about it, or choose to ignore it.

In my own life, I have no belief that deals with an afterlife. I do not hold that any one of these concepts is the truth, and doubt the Christian afterlife concept with which I was raised more than others. On the other hand, I "hope" for an existence beyond death because it seems to me an awful shame for their not to be.

Lacking a belief, I choose to live this life as the only one that I will have and try to live it in such a manner as to make this life worthwhile. I try to avoid the worry that my lack of belief in the afterlife can cause, by simply ignoring the question, which is my coping mechanism. I have a "wait and see" (or don't see as the case may be :P ) attitude towards it.

Nevertheless, as jess has stated, I have "addressed" the issue in my own way.

Though recently I do amuse myself with the thought that I planned out my current life like a movie and am just living it to experience it...

(I die, I get to script the next one. Hmm, maybe I will try being a medical doctor next time...)


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PostPosted: 15 Nov 2007, 21:21 
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hmmm... I mean that I do't see how my beliefs actually influence how I live day to day. I don't trust them enough to risk anything on them, after all. My general attitude is more of a 'need to be a good person, because if this is all there is this is all that matters'.

I said vain hopes because of two reasons--- vain as in futile to believe in some sort of afterlife, and vain as in egocentric to feel that I am important enough to continue on after my death. That gets me about some Christians I've heard, who rail against the 'bec=omming one with the universe' because each person, each individual is too important to merge into one. I prefer to think of myself as the former vain, however, although I'll admit to the second.

I feel that each sentient being who comes to the realization of his/her own mortality deals with it in some way. Some of us choose the comfort of harps and endless singing, some reincarnation, some find the grave as a solid end acceptable. I don't think any of us goes to our graves without thinking about the possibilites of what lies beyond--- however briefly, however simply. Does that make sense?

Ahh... I see three people independantly seeing the same spectre in the house at different times as being more easily explained as all three of them seeing the same spectre than as all three of them having a similar dream, a similar hallucination, etc. Occam's Razor for that, In My Opinion.

Joe Nickel once told a story about a ghost hunt he was on--- a woman constantly saw the image of a little girl in olden clothes in her kitchen. They talked with her, and they came to the conclusion that the woman was desperate for a child and once she adopted a little girl, the spectre went away. So, she, a stable professional woman with no history of hysteria or fantasy had imagined up a little girl to play with in her house, and this fantasy disappeared once she had her own daughter? Or once she had her own daughter, the connection between the little ghost girl and the woman wasn't as strong, and the girl retreated? Which is the easier one?

Not being replicable, we'll not know.

Heaven knows, there is no gravity, it's all demons who pull everything to the ground. ;)

Of course, if this were all standard, it's be so much easier to swallow. But no one dealing wiht the supernatural agrees with anyone else... :(


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 Post subject: Re: Spiritialism
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 22:02 
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 Post subject: Re: Spiritialism
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 22:03 
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