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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 11:08 
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Hex wrote:
Interesting to note that the Gaol Naota take this position. Reconstructionalists can, when finding that they don't have lots of evidence, include everything they can find, rather than being selective and discarding info.


The thing about Gaol Naofa is that it isn't exclusively Reconstructionalist. It also considers itself Traditionalist. Though Traditionalists would disagree, apparently Trads have a thing against Reconstructionists....but anyways, Gaol Naofa doesn't feel it is lacking in information and resources, as we also look to the Gaelic cultures as they are today in their traditions.


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 12:29 
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Stoirmeacha wrote:
The thing about Gaol Naofa is that it isn't exclusively Reconstructionalist. It also considers itself Traditionalist. Though Traditionalists would disagree, apparently Trads have a thing against Reconstructionists....but anyways, Gaol Naofa doesn't feel it is lacking in information and resources, as we also look to the Gaelic cultures as they are today in their traditions.


Well ... There's this whole 'legitimacy' thing. Trads get their legitimacy through an understanding that what they do is what was done before (or as close to it as possible) and, as such, they have an unbroken 'tie' to the original religion. Recons, on the other hand, look to the past origins as the legitimizing factors around which the 'new' phase of the religion is built. In that, of course, it incorporates issues and ideals from the modern world that were never in the original religion; even in traditions are brought in, they will be supplanted by and/or interpreted through a modern view.

This 'dilution' of the original religion is what Trads don't like, which is sort of hypocritical IMHO, as the idea that the original religion/traditions have come through all this time unchanged is a bit much to believe ... :dontknow:

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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 12:46 
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Hex wrote:
This 'dilution' of the original religion is what Trads don't like, which is sort of hypocritical IMHO, as the idea that the original religion/traditions have come through all this time unchanged is a bit much to believe ... :dontknow:


I have met a few Traditionalists who were Christians, too, though.
Most of the arguments that I have heard from Trads is that there is nothing needed to be Reconstructed, however, the native polytheistic religion does, in fact, need to be reconstructed in order for it to be even close to the original.


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:00 
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I can understand trying to reconstruct ancient pagan religions in order to understand them better.

Just as I understand Ray Mears' attempts to reconstruct palaeolithic food gathering and processing techniques, which the wiki link omits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Mears

I understand - very well, since I'm a keen collector of wild food - the atavistic pleasures that hunter gathering can give to people. And, having read, and absorbed (though perhaps 'grokked' would be a better term) Dawkins, Pinker, Dennet et al, I understand [b ]why[/b ] I find these things so pleasurable.

What I don't understand is why pagans, or neo pagans, treat their theologies (insofar as they do) What I don't understand is taking pagan gods seriously, as things that seriously, in terms of viewing pagan gods as somehow out there, as things.

David B (is, at this time of night, not entirely sure that he has made himself as clear as he would wish)


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:03 
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That sounds like a new thread. Mind a split?

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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:08 
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I imagine it would be hard for ANY atheist to understand the idea of literal deity.

But then...that's why its called "faith".


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:10 
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jess wrote:
That sounds like a new thread. Mind a split?


Fine

David


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:13 
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Stoirmeacha wrote:
I imagine it would be hard for ANY atheist to understand the idea of literal deity.

But then...that's why its called "faith".


Then I would suggest imagining again, and start considering the atheist who did at one point in his life have faith in a literal deities, and grew ...beyond it.

David B


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:22 
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Then why is it so hard to understand that belief within Pagan religions???


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:31 
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I think we need more common ground here to get to the real questions...

Quote:
What I don't understand is why pagans, or neo pagans, treat their theologies (insofar as they do) What I don't understand is taking pagan gods seriously, as things that seriously, in terms of viewing pagan gods as somehow out there, as things.

David B (is, at this time of night, not entirely sure that he has made himself as clear as he would wish)


I don't get what you are asking. I don't want to wander off into the ether answering unasked thoughts, either...

I need to get back to work!

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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:38 
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Stoirmeacha wrote:
Then why is it so hard to understand that belief within Pagan religions???


Belief I understand.

Well founded belief needs evidence to demonstrate that it is in fact well founded, IMV.

There are a helluva lot of current and historical beliefs which are incompatible with each other.

How to chose between believing in one, the other, or none?

David B (suggests confirmatory evidence that stands up to sceptical examination)


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PostPosted: 17 Jul 2008, 18:43 
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could you give an example, so I have a clue as to what you mean?

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PostPosted: 25 Jul 2008, 17:18 
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Hello,

As founder of Gaol Naofa, I just want to make a slight correction here. Gaol Naofa (GN) no longer identifies as a traditionalist organization. When GN was in its earliest beginning stages, 'traditionalist' was used next to reconstructionist to differentiate our practice from those reconstructionists who were simply interested in pre-Christian worldviews or religious practices sans the emphasis on culture. We used 'traditionalist' to mean that we are both a cultural and spiritual organization, and that our way of life is rooted firmly in the Gaelic cultural continuum.

After some short discussion, however, we decided to drop 'traditionalist' in respect for those traditionalists in Ireland and Scotland who have been using the term for quite sometime already to describe their own distinct and established "movement." In Ireland and Scotland 'traditionalist' refers to those (usually in the Gaeltacht/Gàidhealtachd regions) who participate in the extant rural folk-traditions and beliefs. Very few traditionalists are actually polytheists, most of them are Christians and agnostics. Therefore, we found the term rather inappropriate to use in describing our approach to Gaelic Polytheism.

Our approach hasn't changed, just our terminology.


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PostPosted: 25 Jul 2008, 17:30 
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Welcome! Glad to have you here! :wave:

TomasFlannabhra wrote:
Our approach hasn't changed, just our terminology.


So ... Basically, you include traditions, and where they lack, you reconstruct to fit? And, in doing that, what's the theological view of traditions that have roots in Christianity?

Thanks guys, I'm really enjoying this thread! :D

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PostPosted: 25 Jul 2008, 17:44 
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Hex wrote:
Welcome! Glad to have you here! :wave:

TomasFlannabhra wrote:
Our approach hasn't changed, just our terminology.


So ... Basically, you include traditions, and where they lack, you reconstruct to fit? And, in doing that, what's the theological view of traditions that have roots in Christianity?

Thanks guys, I'm really enjoying this thread! :D


In Gaol Naofa, we strive to reconstruct a wholly polytheistic worldview and spiritual tradition that compliments the Gaelic cultural continuum. Christianity is a living aspect of the Gaelic cultures and has been for the past 1, 400 years, so it is inevitable to avoid it. Many of the extant folk-traditions and beliefs are pre-Christian in origin but have survived under a veneer of Christianity, so we attempt to "purify" them, as it were. Traditions that are blatantly Christian in origin are discarded as they would not have been a part of a pre-Christian worldview.


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