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Science & The Supernatural: A Discussion of the World Around us - Based on Science with an Interest in the Supernatural ...
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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2010, 02:59 
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jess wrote:
Wicked cool, The God Petrich.

That's what I thought, and what was implied. Hex was thinking that he did make laws and because he had to flee the city at a point, that also counted.

As to laws, I don't know of any notable ones. The closest I can think of is moving his capital to Jerusalem. That would bump his score up to 5.

He suffered some rebellions against his rule and a would-be coup toward the end of his life. However, he succeeded in defeating those rebellions, and he defeated that coup by selecting someone he liked as king.

There wasn't anything about his death -- he seems to have died of old age. When that onetime womanizer found it hard to get it up when some pretty young lady snuggled up next to him, one knows that he had gone downhill.

About his birth and parents, he looks like he'd been a commoner with undistinguished ancestry.

Quote:
As I said, I've seen it argued recently (I'm currently doing an indepth study on the man) that since he doesn't follow the traditional 'hero' system, he's probably historic.

Thank you

:notworthy:

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a historical King David who got exaggerated somewhat -- consider him and Goliath. His nation could have suffered a plague after he ordered the taking of a census, with some later chronicler deciding that God had gotten pissed at him for no apparent reason.


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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2010, 09:27 
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There ARE two Goliath stories--- the impressive one with the sling, and another where he is killed more normally.

I'll need to go through them again.

I also just found out, Goliath was the son of David's Grandmother's sister-in-law. :umm:

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PostPosted: 14 Feb 2010, 15:38 
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jess wrote:
There ARE two Goliath stories--- the impressive one with the sling, and another where he is killed more normally.

Seems like the compilers of 2 Samuel had captured a legend in the making by including as much as they could find. The second one is likely first - it's the most "normal" looking. The first one seems like an exaggeration of the second one.

The Gospels are similar; Matthew and Luke added lots of details to the Gospel of Mark, like separately-invented genealogies. What's likely the oldest surviving version of gMark ends with the ladies discovering that Jesus Christ had departed from his tomb. Some later scribes added JC's reapperance. Likewise, Matthew, Luke, John, and Peter added lots of details. Peter even added tall apostles and a walking, talking cross.

Something like the case of St. Francis Xavier, who in the early to mid 16th cy. tried to convert some of the southern and eastern Asian peoples that European explorers encountered. The miracles grew as time went on. In his letters, he complained about how difficult the Japanese language is, while later accounts described him as speaking several languages fluently without having to learn them.

More generally, that editing strategy can explain much of the repetitiveness -- and many of the contradictions -- of the Bible. Chronicles repeats Kings, but with different editorial slants. Genesis has 2 different creation stories. After Noah's Flood we find an account of the post-Flood dispersion of humanity, then the Tower of Babel. The New Testament has 4 biographies of Jesus Christ. Etc.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2010, 23:05 
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lpetrich posted this elsewhere:


Quote:
I hadn't done a blow-by-blow analysis of Romulus's career in that ratpags thread, but I'll do so here.

Lord' Raglan's Hero Pattern mentions Lord Raglan scoring him as 19. I shall explain that scoring:

1. Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
His mother Rhea Silvia was King Numitor's daughter: 1

2. His father is a king, and
His reputed human father was King Amulius: 1

3. Often a near relative of his mother, but
Amulius was Rhea Silvia's father's brother: 1

4. The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
Rhea Silvia gets to see the Roman god Mars: 1

5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
Mars: 1

6. At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grand father to kill him, but
Amulius demands that that Romulus and his twin brother Remus be killed: 1

7. he is spirited away, and
A servant puts the twins into a basket and places it in the Tiber River: 1

8. Reared by foster parents in a far country.
After floating down the river, the basket washes up on shore, a wolf takes care of the baby twins for a while, then a peasant couple adopts them: 1

9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
Yes: 1

10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
When the twins grow up, they return to Amulius's Alba Longa home: 1

11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
They confront and kill Amulius. Romulus and Remus then go off to found their own city. They fight over where it will be located, and Romulus kills Remus: 1

12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
Hersilia had no notable ancestry: 0

13. And becomes king.
He founds Rome: 1

14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
Relative to his earlier life, yes: 1

I think that this needs to be clarified, because something like the kidnapping of the Sabine women could certainly qualify as a big event. However, Romulus is secure in his position the whole time.

15. Prescribes laws, but
He founds the Roman Legions and the Roman Senate, among others: 1

16. Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
He overreaches himself and starts acting autocratic, which displeases the Senate: 1

17. Is driven from the throne and city, after which
However, he stays in office: 0

18. He meets with a mysterious death,
During a storm, he was carried up into heaven: 1

19. Often at the top of a hill,
No: 0

20. His children, if any do not succeed him.
Numa Pompilius was not even close to being one of his children: 1

21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
It is gone: 1

22. He has one or more holy sepulchres.
His successors built some shrines for him, like at that wolf's cave: 1


As to possible historicity, there's a bit of evidence that has recently been proposed. It is the finding of a cave that could have been the [wiki]Lupercal[/wiki], that wolf's cave. However, that argument seems rather weak, because someone could have identified that cave as that wolf's cave well after the fact.


However, Romulus and Remus fit the Indo-European [wiki]divine twins[/wiki] mytheme much better -- there are Vedic, Greek, Germanic, Baltic, and Slavic versions of it.

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