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Science & The Supernatural: A Discussion of the World Around us - Based on Science with an Interest in the Supernatural ...
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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2009, 15:14 
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I hope you will find this text interesting.
According to science our universe (space-time) has a beginning (http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9403004).This paper is written by the cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin of the Tufts university and Arvind Bonde.)

It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause. Since space-time has a beginning there was a first physical occurrence. Causality requires that the first physical occurrence had a cause. Causality and the fact that space-time has a beginning implies that this Prime Cause is non-dimensional and independent of space-time.

To conclude the above paragraphs:
Fact: No thing nor event in the known universe or laws of physics lacks a cause.
Assume: There is no Prime Cause (Creator).
Ergo: There is no universe.
Fact: There is a universe.
Therefore: the statement that was assumed is proven to be a false statement by reduction ad absurdum (proof by disproof).
(Since "There is no Creator" is proven false, the opposite is true: There is a Creator.)

Being logically consistent (orderly), our (to say perfectly-orderly would be a tautology) orderly universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Orderly; i.e. Perfect. An orderly—"not capricious," as Einstein put it—Creator (also implying Just), therefore, necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Torah, see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Torah —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Some of the text is a quote from www.netzarim.co.il)

The fact that the Creator is perfect implies that He isn’t self-contradictory. Therefore any religion, and all religions contradicts each other (otherwise they would be identical), that contradicts Torah is the antithesis to the Creator.

The most common counter arguments are answered here: http://bloganders.blogspot.com/search/l ... 0arguments)

Anders Branderud


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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2009, 21:23 
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Grand Poobah
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Welcome!

I think there are several flaws in your argument--- one main one being that the first cause is unknown, not there is not one--- and if there is a first cause, it does not need to be a 'creator'.

After that, both Hinduism and the Egyptian religion have older texts than the Torah (by 500 and 1500+ years, respectively) --- does this mean that the Egyptians were right and the Torah wrong?

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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 05:49 
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The Power to Scry
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Quote:
It is a fundamental law of physics (causality) that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause. Since space-time has a beginning there was a first physical occurrence. Causality requires that the first physical occurrence had a cause. Causality and the fact that space-time has a beginning implies that this Prime Cause is non-dimensional and independent of space-time.


Quantum mechanics is probabilistic not causal so that is not only false it is irrelevant.

Quantum fluctuations for one example in the vacuum are uncaused or there is no causal link to zero energy particle creation so that is false see vacuum energy evidence of this was found it has an effect called the Casamir effect. If there was a cause then what caused that cause ad infinitum, ie who created God? Or there's turtles all the way down! If no cause then time begins at t=0 and to talk about before is meaningless, from our perspective time is eternal has always been and was uncaused except by the singularity, itself an unknown and possibly probabilistically non causal event.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... plates.svg

Short story short Axiomatic proofs relying on Anselm's argument are not valid.

Or as Kant said existence is not a predicate. Ie existence is not reliant on either necessary conditions or laws or anything. The sky is blue because Oxygen is pale blue, is an example of a predicate, it is axiomatically believed to be true.

Also the necessary non existent argument. things exist, things that don't are not able to be known or discerned from inside existence.

What is the most powerful thing that can exist?
If God does not exist he is more powerful than if he created the Universe and did exist.
Therefore God does not exist.

Non existence is a predicate obviously it relies not on evidence but no evidence in existence to establish non existence, and by the same token the Invisible Pink Unicorn does not exist.

M-Theory (Master Theory or Magic Theory) a mutant spawn of String Theory suggests how The Universe came to be, but since it relies on an explanation that is outside of the observable Universe it is merely a hypothetical model of how, Hawking has worked on the singularity model which is a how if not a why.

Quantum Loop Gravity also suggests that the Universe is in a constant state of expansion followed by collapse eternally. This may be discernible from inside our universe as previous Universes should leave a trace in ours although the previous universe might of been subject to slightly different natural laws so the traces might be quite weird and puzzling if c was slower or faster and the fine structure constant was different. Currently the theory of choice is that observations show the Universe to be expanding faster and faster and will do so till the end of time at which point time itself will begin to asymptotically approach 0 and Quantum interactions will once more dominate, possibly starting another big bang. In that case its obvious that there is no fine tuning, enough monkeys with enough typewriters eventually will write Shakespeare. Assuming monkeys are spawned from natural and eternal laws.

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