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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2009, 08:50 
I found this text on internet.

Monday, 2 February 2009
Compassion is a human virtue
It has sometimes been claimed that faith, hope and charity (and possibly also forgiveness) are specifically Christian virtues. For example, G K Chesterton claimed this. They are certainly held in high esteem by Christians, but that does not mean that Christians invented them.

But ancient pagans certainly included compassion among their values.

The Religio Romana website lists a number of Roman virtues, including:

* Aequitas: Equity; fairness and justice within society and government
* Caritas: Affection; To love, cherish and hold dear, especially within family
* Clementia: Clemency; Mildness, gentleness, mercy, compassion in private and public matters
* Concordia: Concord; Harmony, agreement between peoples and nations
* Fides: Good Faith; Trust, fidelity, fulfilment of promises made
* Humanitas: Humanity; Kindness, being refined, cultured and educated, embracing the best aspects of civilization
* Indulgentia: Indulgence; Permissiveness, leniency, tolerance
* Justitia: Justice; Equitable, fair treatment, guided by principles, also defined by implementation and enforcement of reasonable laws within a sound government
* Liberalitas: Liberality; Generosity; to give abundantly
* Munificentia: Munificence; Benevolent, bountiful service, charitable
* Spes: Hope; A belief in favorable outcome particularly in times of struggle

I don't know if one are allowed to make links that are clickable so I try to make it less clicky.
heartofflame.blogspot dot com/ 2009/02/compassion-is-human-virtue.html

Christians and Buddhists bragg much about how different their practices are. They alone are into compassion.

So as atheist I got curious of if also Pagans and Wiccans and other groups? Shamanists and ??? also care about compassion whatever that means.

I fail to see Christians and Buddhists as really being into compassion. Do this or else you end up in Hell.

Get good Karma or the bad karma will trap you in Hell forever kind of compassion?

So you guys being rational pagans, what is your view on compassion?

what word do you use for it or how do you understand the word when you use it?


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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2009, 18:44 
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Compassion: a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.

I think that many pagans would feel that most magical workings are acts of compassion. They don't have the term "sympathetic magic" for nuttin'!

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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2009, 19:42 
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curious atheist, guests are not allowed tags or links or pics. Sorry. But what you are doing is fine, and we're happy to chat. You are also welcoem to join, but no pressure. ;)

I guess on a huge level, it depends on what you consider 'compassion'.

Most of the gods pagans worship have a role to help humans out. It's the rare human who prefers the capricious and selfish gods... But the gods mostly have basic purposes--- simple things, filling needs. Like fertility, protection, crops, hunting, etc. All of those are ways the gods show compassion towards humans.

But I'm thinking you are wondering if people are encouraged to be compassionate by paganism?

Quote:
Get good Karma or the bad karma will trap you in Hell forever kind of compassion?

So you guys being rational pagans, what is your view on compassion?

what word do you use for it or how do you understand the word when you use it?


Hard questions.

I should start by saying that pagans are not a cohesive unit. We all hold different beliefs. Or as the old saying goes, modified, ask 3 pagans a question, get 5 answers. ;)

I don't know if all pagan views have no hell= torture. I believe there is an afterlife for many, and some have as the worst torture a ceasing to exist. But I could be wrong.

Personally, I do not know. I would prefer some after life judgment and punishment, because the idea of a Hitler getting off scott free is disgusting, but I don't know.

My view on compassion is that it is a desire to relieve others of pain. In my worldview, if there are deities, they are either compassionate and impotent or powerful and not compassionate. I'd rather see a god miserable with me than one who can help but chooses not to.


Quote:
I know nothing about Pagan Gods. Whom is seen as the most compassionate of them?

Whom among the Pagan gods use his or her power to help humans with their trouble?

Jesus and Amida is known to use their power to help humans.

Does Pagans have something similar?

Goddess of Mercy? Mercedes?

en.wikipedia dot org/ wiki/Guan_Yin

She seems to come near. Ok she is Buddhist but could her not be based on an old Goddess from more ancient Pagan origins?

The Goddess of Mercy = Earth Mother seen as the Mother of all and would not that be compassionate? What else to name it?


I remember once interviewing a Mohawk ( a member of an East coast native american tribe) about a sweat lodge experience. He had been told to 'get close to his mother' when things got difficult in the lodge. To rest on the ground and be close to the earth. It would take care of him. Compassion, to me.

Kuan Yin and the other Boddisatvas of course are excellent ideas of compassionate gods, even as Buddhist. Their whole role is compassion.

Many deities and heroes have given people gifts to help us. That is compassionate. Some specialize in helping people deal with grief, or infertility, or fear.

All of these things mean compassion to me.

If you want to know if pagans have creeds or codes they follow, some do. I'll post some next.

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PostPosted: 02 Apr 2009, 19:47 
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Asatru/ Heathen/ Norse followers have nine 'noble virtues'
1. Courage
2. Truth
3. Honour
4. Fidelity
5. Discipline
6. Hospitality
7. Self Reliance
8. Industriousness
9. Perseverance


The Commandments of Solon (Athenian statesman, lawmaker, and Lyric poet)

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

The Egyptian was to be able to swear on these when he reached Ma'at, the goddess of right and truth, who judged each soul after death.


Transgressions Against Mankind

1. I have not committed murder, neither have I bid any man to slay on my behalf;

2. I have not committed rape, neither have I forced any woman to commit fornication;

3. I have not avenged myself, nor have I burned with rage;

4. I have not caused terror, nor have I worked affliction;

5. I have caused none to feel pain, nor have I worked grief;

6. I have done neither harm nor ill, nor I have caused misery;

7. I have done no hurt to man, nor have I wrought harm to beasts;

8. I have made none to weep;

9. I have had no knowledge of evil, neither have I acted wickedly, nor have I wronged the people;

10. I have not stolen, neither have I taken that which does not belong to me, nor that which belongs to another, nor have I taken from the orchards, nor snatched the milk from the mouth of the babe;

11. I have not defrauded, neither I have added to the weight of the balance, nor have I made light the weight in the scales;

12. I have not laid waste the plowed land, nor trampled down the fields;

13. I have not driven the cattle from their pastures, nor have I deprived any of that which was rightfully theirs;

14. I have accused no man falsely, nor have I supported any false accusation;

15. I have spoken no lies, neither have I spoken falsely to the hurt of another;

16. I have never uttered fiery words, nor have I stirred up strife;

17. I have not acted guilefully, neither have I dealt deceitfully, nor spoken to deceive to the hurt another;

18. I have not spoken scornfully, nor have I set my lips in motion against any man;

19. I have not been an eavesdropper;

20. I have not stopped my ears against the words of Right and Truth;

21. I have not judged hastily, nor have I judged harshly;

22. I have committed no crime in the place of Right and Truth;

23. I have caused no wrong to be done to the servant by his master;

24. I have not been angry without cause;

25. I have not turned back water at its springtide, nor stemmed the flow of running water;

26. I have not broken the channel of a running water;

27. I have never fouled the water, nor have I polluted the land.



Sins

28. I have not cursed nor despised God, nor have I done that which God does abominate;

29. I have not vexed or angered God;

30. I have not robbed God, nor have I filched that which has been offered in the temples;

31. I have not added unto nor have I diminished the offerings which are due;

32. I have not purloined the cakes of the gods;

33. I have not carried away the offerings made unto the blessed dead;

34. I have not disregarded the season for the offerings which are appointed;

35. I have not turned away the cattle set apart for sacrifice;

36. I have not thwarted the processions of the god;

37. I have not slaughtered with evil intent the cattle of the god;



Personal Transgressions

38. I have not acted guilefully nor have I acted in insolence;

39. I have not been overly proud, nor have I behaved myself with arrogance;

40. I have never magnified my condition beyond what was fitting;

41. Each day have I labored more than was required of me;

42. My name has not come forth to the boat of the Prince



Does this begin to help?

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2009, 01:29 
Thanks for all responses.

Ma'at, the goddess of right and truth, who judged each soul after death.

That was a demanding lady indeed. :D

I guess the word compassion is not a very precise word. individuals interpret it differently.

I have very mixed feelings about Buddhists showing compassion. It is their role maybe but do they really live it?

And it kind of goes against their view to not be very passionate about this life. To rather be detached and to only experience the now and to not plan ahead. Compassion needs a lot of planning ahead for it to work when needed? Or else it will be only make shift patch work.

building houses that can stand earth quakes takes a lot of planning but can protect from much sorrow later when the jumping, rumbling, tectonic disaster struck. If one only live for the now then one don't plan for the future.

But if one only plan and work for the future one risk to not experience the now so a balance is needed.


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2009, 01:32 
Heheheh someone is editing my contribution while me writes.

this part was not by me

the jumping, rumbling, tectonic disaster struck.

I would not know how to spell it even


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2009, 01:35 
Is that my computer being hacked or is a moderator helping my poor english out or is somebody trolling this board?


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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2009, 02:08 
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curiousatheist wrote:
Is that my computer being hacked or is a moderator helping my poor english out or is somebody trolling this board?


it's a funny, lil word-filter thingie we have going here. Certain words, for no reason other than our amusement, get switched.

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PostPosted: 04 Apr 2009, 08:56 
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Tao of Pooh wrote:
curiousatheist wrote:
Is that my computer being hacked or is a moderator helping my poor english out or is somebody trolling this board?


it's a funny, lil word-filter thingie we have going here. Certain words, for no reason other than our amusement, get switched.


What she said. It's a joke.

not many people post about earth quakes...

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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2009, 16:03 
3rthq seems to be no joke. the recent one in Italy actually killed people.

I've asked our Rational Pagan here in Sweden and many of them say they use the stories about Thor metaphorically.

The Universe being compassionate has to be taken as metaphor to work for me.

the Rational part of RatPagans how do you explain the "compassionate power" of gods?


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PostPosted: 10 Apr 2009, 16:36 
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To me, the universe can not be compassionate. It simply could not be, if it had any sort of intellegence.

It would not be capable of it.

It would not be vindictive nor cruel either, it just would be. Like an elephant cannot be mean or compassionate to the ants under its feet. It simply can't see them.

Earth quakes etc merely happen, they are not mean nor helpful. The compassion would be in those attempts by deities to help ease the pain. I do not think they are powerful enough to stop an earth quake.

Thor in particular is compassionate--- he4 attempts to interceed for people to help us. Others simply do not care.

Please feel free to tell your pagan friends to join our site!

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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009, 06:57 
I can't link I guess so you have to clip and past and google maybe.

multiart dot nu/grimner/english/

Grimner Runes by Carl Johan Rehbinder.

No he is not my friend. He is or was head of one of many Swedish Pagan groups. I have not followed how they relate to each other. There are hundreds of them so he is just one person among many and I don't know him. Has made a few phone calls and he was nice enough to not hang up on me and my naive questions.

If you want contact he has a contact page on his site.

As I remember he affirmed that about one third to two third of the Swedish Thor betrodden??? does see it like you in a rational way. Not easy to know cause they practice the "Sed" and not talk about it so much.

There are at least three or four main groups though so they are a bit split on what it means to care about Thor.

And then we have the darker side which are Odin based and more like right wing politics views with xenophobic views maybe. Proud to be Viking types of people. Grimner and Rehbinder is not supporting them.

Here is a nown Thor betrodden that also are against the xenophobic versions.

Mattias Gardell. en dot wikipedia dot org/ wiki/ Mattias_Gardell

"He has been working at the Department of Comparative Religion and the Centre for Research in International Migration and Ethnic Relations at Stockholm University. He has also lived and studied in Cairo, Egypt."

"Gardell specializes in the study of religious extremism and religious racism in the United States, studying groups such as the Ku Klux Klan and the Nation of Islam, and folkish movements in Neopaganism (Odinism). His 1995 dissertation on Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam was published in both British and American editions. His 1996 book on black nationalistic Islam is considered the standard work on the subject.

Gardell is a former anarchist but now prefers to use the term "libertarian socialist"."

Gods of the Blood : The Pagan Revival and White Separatism. Durham: Duke University Press. 2003. ISBN 0-8223-3059-8.

He is proud to be a Heathen. He wear the Thor's Hammar every time I see him get inverviewed on TV and in public. But he is very firm on standing against the White Pride tendencies among Pagans here in Sweden and elsewhere.

Which is a kind of good thing. Media easily think that Pagans are racists. Sad misconception.

I can be critical to that one get too deep into Political Correctness cause that is too easily a kind of narrow view too. Seeing all in dichotomies.

Ok about the Universe not being able to show compassion. I fully agree. Disaster just happens they are neither good not bad. They are physical circumstances.

So how can Thor show compassion? Could you give more example?


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PostPosted: 11 Apr 2009, 07:31 
Hahahah, when I did a search for thor and compassion I found this comic thor.

wiki The_Mighty_Thor

quote starts

Thor's father Odin decides his son needs to be taught humility and consequently places Thor (without memories of godhood) into the body and memories of an existing, partially disabled human medical student, Donald Blake. After becoming a doctor and thoroughly believing himself to be the young surgeon Blake, he later discovers Thor's disguised hammer and learns to change back and forth into the Thunder God. The real Blake's persona remains elsewhere until many years later, after Odin becomes satisfied of Thor's humility and lifts the spell, thereby removing the need for a mortal alter ego. The mortal experience, however, shapes Thor into an honorable and courteous individual, who is loyal to all comrades.
Thor #126 (March 1966). Thor battles Hercules on the cover of the first self-titled issue after the retitling of Journey into Mystery. Cover art by Jack Kirby and Vince Colletta.

[edit] Protector of Midgard

Being the son of the Elder Goddess Gaea, Thor has a natural affinity for Earth and feels obliged to protect the mortals that occupy it. Thor's time on Earth is marked by battles against supervillains, monsters, cosmic beings, and even other gods. quote ends

Stargate SG-1 also has a compassionate Thor?

But that is fiction.

What evidence is there for Thor to really care about me?


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009, 03:22 
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jess wrote:
.... 13. I have not driven the cattle from their pastures,


I once pushed some cattle aside (literally, physically) so I could reach a river very damned quickly (it was 46° Celsius and I was beginning to undergo sunstroke, so the river was a lifesaver). So, um, is this a transgression?

jess wrote:
18. ... nor have I set my lips in motion against any man;


I have set my lips in motion, not against any man, but against women, in that I have kissed them. So, um, transgression?

jess wrote:
32. I have not purloined the cakes of the gods;


Well, I haven't. Really, I have not purloined any cakes of any gods. I'm pretty sure of this.

jess wrote:
33. I have not carried away the offerings made unto the blessed dead;


I'm reasonably sure I haven't done this one either.


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PostPosted: 16 Apr 2009, 05:03 
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Gurdur wrote:
jess wrote:
.... 13. I have not driven the cattle from their pastures,

I once pushed some cattle aside (literally, physically) so I could reach a river very damned quickly (it was 46° Celsius and I was beginning to undergo sunstroke, so the river was a lifesaver). So, um, is this a transgression?

Pushing cows out of the way wouldn't qualify, because it does not keep them out of their pastures.

Quote:
jess wrote:
18. ... nor have I set my lips in motion against any man;

I have set my lips in motion, not against any man, but against women, in that I have kissed them. So, um, transgression?

Seems like it's a metaphorical reference to verbally attacking someone or starting a smear campaign.

Sort of like
Quote:
20. I have not stopped my ears against the words of Right and Truth;

which seems like a metaphorical reference to closing one's mind to unpleasant truths.


BTW, the Ten Commandments of Solon are from Diogenes Laertius's Lives and Opinions of the Eminent Philosophers, Life of Solon, para. 12 of the text at that link.

And those Egyptian ones from the Papyrus of Ani, a version of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, some instructions for navigating the next world. At one point, you must make a Negative Confession; you must assert that you have not committed that list of sins. You will then be judged on how honest you were about that. The Papyrus of Ani also contains magic spells for not dying again, and also for fun stuff like turning oneself onto a hawk, a water lily, etc. (a translation of it)

I mention these sources to show that these two are not present-day Urban Legends -- after seeing shoddy "scholarship" about antiquity likes bogus comparisons between Jesus Christ and Horus, I think that it's important to point out what is really from the original sources.


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